Was Sue Ellen just as bad as JR?

[DallasFanForever]

When did JR ever admit to what he was?

Never but I’m glad he didn’t. It never would’ve fit the character in those peak years and I think it would’ve hurt the show. As flawed as he was a big part of the character’s appeal was how he thought he was always justified in doing the wrong and hurtful things he did.

 

[KayLloyd]

Oh, I don’t think Sue Ellen was ever as bad as J.R. though. Anything she did was usually driven by trying to even the score, which she became very good at as the years went by. Sue Ellen deserved to have a shot at making J.R. squirm every once in awhile. She made her mistakes but I don’t think she would’ve ever hurt anyone intentionally, hence why she shelved the movie eventually. She was tired of not standing up for herself all those years and now she was learning to. She had earned that right in my opinion.

I'm not so sure about that, Sue Ellen's bitchy comments were very intentional. She basically called Pam a gold digging whore and deserved the slap that she got.

 

[LMLDallas78]

Never but I’m glad he didn’t. It never would’ve fit the character in those peak years and I think it would’ve hurt the show. As flawed as he was a big part of the character’s appeal was how he thought he was always justified in doing the wrong and hurtful things he did.

Absolutely agree, great way to put it DFF!
Hope you're keeping well.

I'm not so sure about that, Sue Ellen's bitchy comments were very intentional. She basically called Pam a gold digging whore and deserved the slap that she got.

Sure her bitchyness was intentional and directed at Pam more than once (still didn't deserve that slap) but can hardly be compared to JR's intentional verbal rants. Far worse than whatever is a male bitch.

Sue Ellen could hardly be described as a narcissist.

Pam could understand Sue Ellen's behaviour and forgave her. Pam wasn't innocent either. Couldn't even visit Sue Ellen in the Sanitarium even though she knew she could well be carrying her brother's baby. Sue Ellen did ask how Pamela was. And when Cliff wanted to see Sue Ellen, Pam said no at first then immediately told him she sees a psychiatrist DR Elby.

Sue Ellen also helped Pam and Bobby adopt Christopher. Although terribly hurt by the whole thing, I believe Sue Ellen more than made up for her previous bitchy comments by playing a pivotal role in helping Pam have a child. Something Pam had wanted for a long time.

Pam didn't hold Sue Ellen's mouth against her and Sue Ellen never held Pam's slap against her.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

Sue Ellen could hardly be described as a narcissist.

Diagnosable.

 

[Slugworth]

Yeah she's just as bad ..in some ways worse. Many of the reasons already mentioned. She didn't care about anyone but herself and didn't care who was impacted by the fallout...even children.

In season 8 when the family is at risk of losing Ewing Oil to Cliff and Jamie, Sue Ellen tells both JR and Miss Ellie that they deserve to lose it and would be better off...this coming from a woman who has lived a life of luxury thanks to Ewing Oil.

Miss Ellie should've dragged her off of Southfork while she was in mid sentence.

JR was right. She's a lush, a born loser, and the only thing she learned in life is how she can drink vodka without it smelling on her breath.

 

[Slugworth]

Diagnosable.

Yes...and verging on a sociopath.

 

[KayLloyd]

Absolutely agree, great way to put it DFF!
Hope you're keeping well.
p.s. I haven't abandoned the play games thread by choice, I can't get on there! Won't say anymore, I hope I don't get deleted


Sure her bitchyness was intentional and directed at Pam more than once (still didn't deserve that slap) but can hardly be compared to JR's intentional verbal rants. Far worse than whatever is a male bitch.

Sue Ellen could hardly be described as a narcissist.

Pam could understand Sue Ellen's behaviour and forgave her. Pam wasn't innocent either. Couldn't even visit Sue Ellen in the Sanitarium even though she knew she could well be carrying her brother's baby. Sue Ellen did ask how Pamela was. And when Cliff wanted to see Sue Ellen, Pam said no at first then immediately told him she sees a psychiatrist DR Elby.

Sue Ellen also helped Pam and Bobby adopt Christopher. Although terribly hurt by the whole thing, I believe Sue Ellen more than made up for her previous bitchy comments by playing a pivotal role in helping Pam have a child. Something Pam had wanted for a long time.

Pam didn't hold Sue Ellen's mouth against her and Sue Ellen never held Pam's slap against her.

Absolutely agree, great way to put it DFF!
Hope you're keeping well.
p.s. I haven't abandoned the play games thread by choice, I can't get on there! Won't say anymore, I hope I don't get deleted


Sure her bitchyness was intentional and directed at Pam more than once (still didn't deserve that slap) but can hardly be compared to JR's intentional verbal rants. Far worse than whatever is a male bitch.

Sue Ellen could hardly be described as a narcissist.

Pam could understand Sue Ellen's behaviour and forgave her. Pam wasn't innocent either. Couldn't even visit Sue Ellen in the Sanitarium even though she knew she could well be carrying her brother's baby. Sue Ellen did ask how Pamela was. And when Cliff wanted to see Sue Ellen, Pam said no at first then immediately told him she sees a psychiatrist DR Elby.

Sue Ellen also helped Pam and Bobby adopt Christopher. Although terribly hurt by the whole thing, I believe Sue Ellen more than made up for her previous bitchy comments by playing a pivotal role in helping Pam have a child. Something Pam had wanted for a long time.

Pam didn't hold Sue Ellen's mouth against her and Sue Ellen never held Pam's slap against her.

My point is that Sue Ellen did intentionally hurt people, and she could definitely rant with the best of them. The customers at the restaurant where she bit Pam's head off for wasting her time can certainly attest to that. .She's lucky that Pam did forgive her because there weren't a whole lot of people lining up to be her friend. One of the few things that TNT Dallas got right was Valene calling Sue Ellen out for being a bitch. Sure Sue Ellen helped Bobby and Pam adopt Christopher, but that was more for her own sake to avoid embarrassing questions about Kristin.

 

[LMLDallas78]

Sue Ellen tells both JR and Miss Ellie that they deserve to lose it and would be better off..

Well she was agreeing with her Mother-in-law then. Miss Ellie set by example, threatened to get rid of Ewing Oil and to end the fight for it as it caused so much tension in the family.

coming from a woman who has lived a life of luxury thanks to Ewing Oil.

Again like Miss Ellie did. Jock was happy for the women to live that way and said "Ewing women don't work".


Sociopath? Really?
Yeah! This is verging on the ridiculous.
Have you any idea what it's like to be alcohol dependent, experienced deep depression and be in a controlling abusive marriage, all under the guise of a so called close family who actually supports your husband's behaviour? This includes your own domineering Mother.

Next you'll be saying Sue Ellen deserved all the trauma, abuse and bad treatment she endured.

Do I really need to point out all the occasions where Sue Ellen acted selflessly?

A lot of her behaviour was payback to individuals who deserved it and sometimes she got caught up in her pursuit to find happiness, the latest JR drama or the backlash from his dirty deeds. Even when she found the courage to break free, JR manipulated to win her back.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

Sociopath? Really?

Verging on.

 

[CryptCreeper72]

A few times we see SE do what's best for John Ross (leaving him at Southfork), but in the whole, she never seemed to consider how her actions affected him. Manipulating Cally so JR would marry her was detrimental to her son. Making that movie was detrimental to her son. Shooting his father was detrimental to her son. Taking off to follow the shrimp halfway around the world was detrimental to her son. She never really seemed to care.

 

[LMLDallas78]

Verging on.

You (well, not YOU) either are or you're not. Sociopath doesn't tend to be used anymore, maybe it was back then though, it's now ASPD Antisocial Personality Disorder and you can't be officially diagnosed as a sociopath. Although the term is glorified by TV and film.
It describes JR much more than it describes Sue Ellen.

She never really seemed to care.

I think Sue Ellen showed a lot more love and affection than JR ever did.
Did he care when he would abuse her infront of their son in his cot?

Cally made her own choice, no one was dragging her down the aisle. John Ross ended up liking her and it was down to JR that she left.

John Ross knew nothing about the movie. How could it hurt him? She didn't release it, only used it as a threat to JR and not in her son's presence.

I agree about the shooting, a moment of rage and emotion fuelled after watching her lover and ex husband fight then witnessing her lover going over the balcony.

Did he care when he grabbed John Ross from Sue Ellen's arms and ranted to Pam about his wife infront of their son referring to her as a whore?


Did he care when he used his own Mother to attempt to take John Ross from the SC ranch by helicopter with Sue Ellen pleading with Miss Ellie? When Pam handed him over at least it was done in a calm way we believe.

He claimed to be a loving Father and yet he didn't care one bit about Christopher when he thought he was his.

One could argue they are as bad as each other but because JR was the man we love to hate, he got away with an awful lot and forgiven for a lot more.
Sue Ellen as bad as JR though? Of course not!

 

[DallasFanForever]

I'm not so sure about that, Sue Ellen's bitchy comments were very intentional. She basically called Pam a gold digging whore and deserved the slap that she got.

Okay, a fair point but I still don’t think she was as bad as J.R.

 

[Jock's Ghost]

Definitely no better. Her affair with Peter was pathetic. She leads him on, then gets all self-righteous when JR strikes back. Knowing how she is, she still does it. JR was a cad of course, but he wasn't entirely wrong and SE was no better. At least JR didn't knock anyone up.... (Kristin being the exception)

 

[CryptCreeper72]

Definitely no better. Her affair with Peter was pathetic. She leads him on, then gets all self-righteous when JR strikes back. Knowing how she is, she still does it. JR was a cad of course, but he wasn't entirely wrong and SE was no better. At least JR didn't knock anyone up.... (Kristin being the exception)

I gotta disagree on this one. SE and JR were living separate lives. In one scene at the Southfork pool JR even tells he they have an open marriage and she could do whatever she wanted with Peter or with anyone else. JR was bedding half of Dallas at the time, so why is it any different for SE to have an affair?

If it is about Peter being so young, I have to remind you that Holly wasn't much older than Peter when JR slept with her.

 

[LMLDallas78]

There was one way Sue Ellen was just as bad as JR, well actually she was worse, and that's the physical violence. She was guilty of a lot more physical assaults on JR than he was on her.

JR forced her on the bed more than once and he had a vile mouth. He was also controlling and threatening. He slapped her once and would often grab her.

Sue Ellen has a long list of violent behaviour where she slapped him more than once and punched him, threw numerous items at him like perfume and drink bottles. She also attacked Nurse Hatton at the sanitarium.

I wonder where her violent outbursts stemmed from? Was she always that way? I can't recall it ever being mentioned how young Sue Ellen was violent.



@Jock's Ghost
As for her affair with Peter, she didn't lead him on, he pursued her. She felt responsible for him on the back of her guilt over Mickey.
Certainly not pathetic. JR's affairs with much younger women seem to be far more accepted. Why shouldn't she fancy him? Why wouldn't she fight her growing feelings for him?


Nothing wrong with age gap lovers, take it from one who knows!

 

[DallasFanForever]

I wonder where her violent outbursts stemmed from? Was she always that way? I can't recall it ever being mentioned how young Sue Ellen was violent.

Perhaps from having an alcoholic father that left when she was very young? Maybe she had some anger issues related to that if I’m remembering that part correctly.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Sue Ellen wasn't as calculcating, it seems.
Sue Ellen seemed more impulsive.
Under various circumstances. Jock, Miss Ellie, Bobby and Pam could be just as ruthless as JR,
maybe moreso.

 

[Jock's Ghost]

Sue Ellen wasn't as calculcating, it seems.
Sue Ellen seemed more impulsive.
Under various circumstances. Jock, Miss Ellie, Bobby and Pam could be just as ruthless as JR,
maybe moreso.

Good point. ALL could be ruthless, but all were offended when JR used his skills in the open.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Good point. ALL could be ruthless, but all were offended when JR used his skills in the open.

The Ewings were benefiting from JR's activities, so I always found it hypocritical
when he was was taken to task, especially by Miss Ellie.

Miss Ellie was happy to live a life of wealth and privilege, but she didn't seem
to want to know how it was achieved.
In season 5, JR said something to her like 'You don't know all of what Jock Ewing did,
and he never would have let the Cliff Barnes of the world get ahead of him'

 

[Spooky Owl!]

The Ewings were benefiting from JR's activities, so I always found it hypocritical
when he was was taken to task, especially by Miss Ellie.

Miss Ellie was happy to live a life of wealth and privilege, but she didn't seem
to want to know how it was achieved.
In season 5, JR said something to her like 'You don't know all of what Jock Ewing did,
and he never would have let the Cliff Barnes of the world get ahead of him'

Larry himself asserted that JR "was a disaster as an oil man" and that he lost the company maybe a billion or so dollars over the years, while Bobby's more-or-less honest dealings brought Ewing Oil far greater actual profits.