Was Sue Ellen just as bad as JR?

[Jock's Ghost]

In part, yes.
JR was raised to be the President of Ewing Oil.
He was denied the approval of his parents, who chose both of his brothers, instead.
He built Ewing Oil into a billion$ company
And yet... Jock id not leave him the company
JR and Bobby had to compete for it.
Bobby was given a less complicated path, because JR was prepared by Jock for his entire life,
under harsh criticism by Jock.
JR did not become JR in a vacuum


I agree completely.

Miss Ellie was happy to live a life of wealth and privilege,
but she was willfully ignorant of how it was achieved.
She almost never showed JR any love.
Before someone mentions when she helped on the occasion of the cartel loan... it was only because
Ewing Oil was effected, which in turn would have effected her.
I despise the way that Ellie constantly supported Clayton, who was a clear JR adversary
She invites the man to the barbecue (Jock would have sent Clayton out, in no uncertain terms),
She ignores Clayton cheap-punching JR at the wedding,
She marries Clayton and gives him half of SF...unbelievable.

Please stop this hero worship of Miss Ellie... she was as avaricious and unethical as any of the Ewings,
especially when her own agenda was a factor
And I am talking about the character, not BBG, for clarification

Excellent points. Although Ellie was needed on the show, her character was not often sympathetic. Not by me anyway. Her NEVER really siding with JR made no sense. Any mother, no matter how awful her kid behaves will stick up for them. My asshole older brother still gets defense, but thats the biological urge to protect ones child. Ellie acted like JR was not related. She defended Ray more than JR. Most of his behavior didn't deserve defense, but JR was her son and her first response should have always been to his defense. It felt inauthentic when she would turn on him. I always wished she had been more of a Mrs Islin, from The Manchurian Candidate... Power hungry old bag. Or even a Ewing grandmother, Jocks mother, in for the defense and even encourages JR's schemes and plans.

 

[CryptCreeper72]

I did not like the reason for JR and Sue Ellen's split in S8. Jamie causing it, tattling on JR instead of minding her own business. I know, a tv show, but still it felt very calculated but then moron Jaime never admitted to such things. Sue Ellen was wrong to be mad at JR for his flings when SE set the rules and told him to bugger off. YET her she is getting pissed- AFTER she had the miscariage of her young male lover! JR did nothing more than tell Peter to leave, the police setup and all was great fun, but he still took her back. JR is a cad with his women most of the time, but SE is no better. At least during their second marriage.

Well, Jamie didn't mean to tattle. SE came down the steps and heard the whole thing by accident.

JR is the one who screwed up their second marriage. Before she slept with Peter,he even told her she had an open marriage and she could do what she wanted with it. She never would have cheated if JR hadn't destroyed her trust with Holly Harwood. And then, after he went through all that trouble to get her back in his bed, he ruined it by getting caught with Serena.

I blame JR for all that.

 

[Jock's Ghost]

I agree with everything @Jock's Ghost said, except that Miss Ellie was a moron. She was deeply flawed and lived in denial. It was appalling how she and Jock openly favored Gary and Bobby over JR, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she was a "moron."
@Jock's Ghost makes an intriguing point about JR being a tragic figure. It's not so much as he wasn't thanked, but that it seems he was always trying to get his Daddy's approval since he was a boy, but no matter what he did or how hard he worked he knew Bobby would be his Daddy's favorite. He probably long ago gave up on trying to get his mama's approval. This resentment and bitterness probably informed his entire life since it began at such a young age.
There should have been a few scenes in which JR and Katherine bonded over their resentment of their siblings. JR could have told her stories from his youth and she could have told stories about her childhood with her father, whose company Rebecca divided between her, Vliff and Pam, two people who never even met her father.

JR's personality sprung from Gary's shiftlessness and still gets adored by his mother and Bobby's adulation without doing anything still gets adored by his father. JR served in Vietnam, won medals. Made the family billions and still wasnt even for them....

 

[Jock's Ghost]

Well, Jamie didn't mean to tattle. SE came down the steps and heard the whole thing by accident.

JR is the one who screwed up their second marriage. Before she slept with Peter,he eve. Told her she had an open marriage and she could do what she wanted with it. She never would have cheated if JR hadn't destroyed her trust with Holly Harwood. And then, after he went through all that trouble to get her back in his bed, he ruined it by getting caught with Serena.

I blame JR for all that.

Thats true. Neither was an Angel. It's a still a fascinating show about people who should know better, do not.

 

[Jock-O-Lantern]

JR's personality sprung from Gary's shiftlessness and still gets adored by his mother and Bobby's adulation without doing anything still gets adored by his father. JR served in Vietnam, won medals. Made the family billions and still wasnt even for them....

When was JR awarded medals? I missed that part.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Excellent points. Although Ellie was needed on the show, her character was not often sympathetic. Not by me anyway. Her NEVER really siding with JR made no sense. Any mother, no matter how awful her kid behaves will stick up for them. My asshole older brother still gets defense, but thats the biological urge to protect ones child. Ellie acted like JR was not related. She defended Ray more than JR. Most of his behavior didn't deserve defense, but JR was her son and her first response should have always been to his defense. It felt inauthentic when she would turn on him. I always wished she had been more of a Mrs Islin, from The Manchurian Candidate... Power hungry old bag. Or even a Ewing grandmother, Jocks mother, in for the defense and even encourages JR's schemes and plans.

I agree. Miss Ellie was the most unsympathetic TV mother I ever saw, even more so than in the sitcoms.
She didn't mind living a life of wealth and privilege, a life that JR made possible after Jock semi-retired,
but she didn't show any appreciation.
Yes, the Asian wells was risky, but it made them billionaires
She showed JR no support whenever Clayton was involved, even ignoring
that he cheap-punched JR at the wedding.
And Miss Ellie showed JR no motherly love after she learned about Haleyville.

Miss Ellie was as cold and und unfeeling toward JR, as she accused him of such. Projection?

 

[Sea - Boo! - Er]

Southfork is as large as you think it is inside your head.

That sounds like something that should be chanted over an incense candle.

 

[Mustard]

I agree. Miss Ellie was the most unsympathetic TV mother I ever saw, even more so than in the sitcoms.
She didn't mind living a life of wealth and privilege, a life that JR made possible after Jock semi-retired,

The Southworths had landed privilege in the land in their heart and soul for generations, way before the Ewings came into wealth with oil. The Southworths, through Miss Ellie in the Dallas series, embody the old Solid South mentality of the landed privileged classes. The Ewings represent new money in Big Oil. Miss Ellie is more secure in her privilege, mentally, than Jock is.

People who don't see this don't understand completely where the Miss Ellie character is coming from, nor the Southworth back story.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

The Southworths had landed privilege in the land in their heart and soul for generations, way before the Ewings came into wealth with oil. The Southworths, through Miss Ellie in the Dallas series, embody the old Solid South mentality of the landed privileged classes. The Ewings represent new money in Big Oil. Miss Ellie is more secure in her privilege, mentally, than Jock is.

People who don't see this don't understand completely where the Miss Ellie character is coming from, nor the Southworth back story.

First of all, I know more about the American Southand American West than you ever will.
Second, the Southworths lost their money, apparently, because Jock paid the debt, and Miss Ellie married him to save SF
I understand Miss Ellie perfectly. She wants the wealth and privilege, but is content to let others do the work for it, and then turn around and hypocritically
lecture them

and none of that has anything to do with what a cold, unsympathetic mother she was to JR which was the post

 

[CryptCreeper72]

First of all, I know more about the American Southand American West than you ever will.

How can you possibly know that?

We all know the Southworths needed Jock's money to save Southfork, but the fact remains that they were OLD money. Regardless of the financial situation of the Southworths at the time of Ellie's marriage to Jock, she had been brought up in a family who was used to privilege and the Southworth name still commanded respect.

 

[Mustard]

First of all, I know more about the American Southand American West than you ever will.

You say that, yet you don't seem to get it.

Second, the Southworths lost their money, apparently, because Jock paid the debt, and Miss Ellie married him to save SF

Which was in the 1930s, after generations of Southworth privilege already. Jock Ewing was newly rich.

I understand Miss Ellie perfectly. She wants the wealth and privilege, but is content to let others do the work for it, and then turn around and hypocritically
lecture them

She and her family had wealth and privilege for generations. Therefore, she is secure mentally in that privilege in a much deeper way, in a way that Jock Ewing isn't.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

How can you possibly know that?

We all know the Southworths needed Jock's money to save Southfork, but the fact remains that they were OLD money. Regardless of the financial situation of the Southworths at the time of Ellie's marriage to Jock, she had been brought up in a family who was used to privilege and the Southworth name still commanded respect.

I live in the US have traveled, have met many people from that culture,have studied history extensively
I will not be lectured by someone who has no real world familiarity with such things
It does not change the narrative, and it has nothing to do with the topic - that Miss Ellie was a cold and unfeeling mother to JR

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

You say that, yet you don't seem to get it.


Which was in the 1930s, after generations of Southworth privilege already. Jock Ewing was newly rich.


She and her family had wealth and privilege for generations. Therefore, she is secure mentally in that privilege in a much deeper way, in a way that Jock Ewing isn't.

I do get it, you do not
You do not live in the US, maybe you have not visited, or at least not much, I have met more people from such areas than you, I am quite sure.
Old money or new money, Jock still saved SF, and it has nothing to do with the thread
Old money privilege or not, the thread is about what a cold and unfeeling mother Miss Ellie was to JR.

 

[CryptCreeper72]

I will not be lectured by someone who has no real world familiarity with such things

No one is lecturing you about anything. This is a discussion forum, and we are discussing a fictional character. You constantly attack other posters by accusing them of attacking you, simply for having a different perspective or opinion than yours.

You have no way of knowing what any of our life experiences are, but here you are insisting you know more than anyone else.

I agree Ellie was a cold and distant mother. I also agree she was raised in a family who had a deeply privileged mindset. That's not a "lecture." It's just an opinion about a FICTIONAL FAMILY.

 

[CryptCreeper72]

you mean like telling me "I do not get it"
Sounds like a lecture to me
And I know it is a fictional family. Do not yell at me.
Other people make it about a culture, and may have no idea about its nuances and history

All well and good, but it has nothing to do with the topic
I have been attacked.
I have a right to an opinion too, and I am constantly singled out, especially on threads where others have expressed
a similar opinion. and have not been treated the same.
And you do not know my life experiences, either, but it does not stop you or anyone else from judging me,
or disrespecting my opinions
I can provide numerous examples, but it woud not be worth my time and effort
I can appreciate a different perspective, but not outright disinformation, deflection, straw man arguments,
condescending arrogance, misrepresentation of what I say, etc
And I will not be silent when I am disrespected

And I stayed on topic.

This is about what a cold and unfeeling mother Miss Ellie is,
not old money v new money

The real intolerance is vilifying any opinion that does not elevate Miss Ellie to the skys

Actually, the topic here is whether or not Sue Ellen is as bad a JR - not about Miss Ellie at all. But it seems as if every thread around here recently ends up being about Ellie. Wonder why that is?

Again, no one is attacking you. It's a discussion. Everyone around here gets snark occasionally, but most of us understand that's the way the Internet works.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

My post was deleted. So yes, I am being silenced.
Others can go off topic though
So back on topic, no, Sue Ellen was not as bad as JR
Sue Ellen had more limits than JR,
and because of her impaired state at times, she was not in her right mind

 

[Jock's Ghost]

When was JR awarded medals? I missed that part.

In the very early seasons, season 2 I think, its briefly mentioned JR served in Vietnam and won some medals.

 

[Jock-O-Lantern]

In the very early seasons, season 2 I think, it's briefly mentioned JR served in Vietnam and won some medals.

I don't believe they ever officially said what war JR served in. I asked the question years ago and no one 100% knew. Larry Hagman's age would suggest Korea, while JR most likely served in Vietnam.

And what medals would he had been given considering he didn't even make a kill according to JR himself. His words were "I couldn't kill anybody, even in the war I never killed anybody."

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Interesting that Both JR and Sue Ellen were raised in such a way, as to fit into specific roles
JR and President of Ewing oil, Sue Ellen to be the perfect wife

 

[Sea - Boo! - Er]

And what medals would he had been given considering he didn't even make a kill according to JR himself. His words were "I couldn't kill anybody, even in the war I never killed anybody."

As I understand it, any soldier wounded in battle qualifies for a Purple Heart medal. Maybe JR has been shot more times than we know about.