Was Sue Ellen just as bad as JR?

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Larry himself asserted that JR "was a disaster as an oil man" and that he lost the company maybe a billion or so dollars over the years, while Bobby's more-or-less honest dealings brought Ewing Oil far greater actual profits.

Not at the start of the series. JR had expanded Ewing Oil substantially, and the Asian Wells - it was risky but it made the Ewings into Billionaires.

I don't know how LH calculated who did what, but JR was a portrayed as an excellent businessman, at least until season 10.
I remember a show where LH was once asked what JR stood for, and he was unsure (I think he said 'John" with uncertainty),
so he was not the best source for some of Dallas' narrative, surprisingly

 

[Jock's Ghost]

The Ewings were benefiting from JR's activities, so I always found it hypocritical
when he was was taken to task, especially by Miss Ellie.

Miss Ellie was happy to live a life of wealth and privilege, but she didn't seem
to want to know how it was achieved.
In season 5, JR said something to her like 'You don't know all of what Jock Ewing did,
and he never would have let the Cliff Barnes of the world get ahead of him'

Miss Ellie was a moron. Very naive when it came to Jock. How else did JR learn his tricks than from his Daddy and their friends? JR was caused by her turning him loose and claiming Gary was her favorite- no wonder JR was jealous and resentful of Gary, no matter what he did, it was fine and the bad stuff was Daddy or JR's fault. Yet everything JR did was under scrutiny and judgment. NO wonder he was the way he was. In the barest, classic sense, JR was a tragic character. He loved the art of the deals and the feeling of achievement, yet no one thanked him or gave him an atta boy.... although mortgaging Southfork was all kinds of dangerous and stupid, it paid off.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

In the barest, classic sense, JR was a tragic character. He loved the art of the deals and the feeling of achievement, yet no one thanked him or gave him an atta boy

Well, I'll agree JR was a tragic character -- but he was tragic because no one really thanked him enough??

 

[A Nightmare on Jimmy Todd Street]

I agree with everything @Jock's Ghost said, except that Miss Ellie was a moron. She was deeply flawed and lived in denial. It was appalling how she and Jock openly favored Gary and Bobby over JR, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she was a "moron."
@Jock's Ghost makes an intriguing point about JR being a tragic figure. It's not so much as he wasn't thanked, but that it seems he was always trying to get his Daddy's approval since he was a boy, but no matter what he did or how hard he worked he knew Bobby would be his Daddy's favorite. He probably long ago gave up on trying to get his mama's approval. This resentment and bitterness probably informed his entire life since it began at such a young age.
There should have been a few scenes in which JR and Katherine bonded over their resentment of their siblings. JR could have told her stories from his youth and she could have told stories about her childhood with her father, whose company Rebecca divided between her, Vliff and Pam, two people who never even met her father.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Well, I'll agree JR was a tragic character -- but he was tragic because no one really thanked him enough??

In part, yes.
JR was raised to be the President of Ewing Oil.
He was denied the approval of his parents, who chose both of his brothers, instead.
He built Ewing Oil into a billion$ company
And yet... Jock id not leave him the company
JR and Bobby had to compete for it.
Bobby was given a less complicated path, because JR was prepared by Jock for his entire life,
under harsh criticism by Jock.
JR did not become JR in a vacuum

Miss Ellie was a moron. Very naive when it came to Jock. How else did JR learn his tricks than from his Daddy and their friends? JR was caused by her turning him loose and claiming Gary was her favorite- no wonder JR was jealous and resentful of Gary, no matter what he did, it was fine and the bad stuff was Daddy or JR's fault. Yet everything JR did was under scrutiny and judgment. NO wonder he was the way he was. In the barest, classic sense, JR was a tragic character. He loved the art of the deals and the feeling of achievement, yet no one thanked him or gave him an atta boy.... although mortgaging Southfork was all kinds of dangerous and stupid, it paid off.

I agree completely.

Miss Ellie was happy to live a life of wealth and privilege,
but she was willfully ignorant of how it was achieved.
She almost never showed JR any love.
Before someone mentions when she helped on the occasion of the cartel loan... it was only because
Ewing Oil was effected, which in turn would have effected her.
I despise the way that Ellie constantly supported Clayton, who was a clear JR adversary
She invites the man to the barbecue (Jock would have sent Clayton out, in no uncertain terms),
She ignores Clayton cheap-punching JR at the wedding,
She marries Clayton and gives him half of SF...unbelievable.

Please stop this hero worship of Miss Ellie... she was as avaricious and unethical as any of the Ewings,
especially when her own agenda was a factor
And I am talking about the character, not BBG, for clarification

 

[Spooky Owl!]

Please stop this hero worship of Miss Ellie... she was as avaricious and unethical as any of the Ewings,
especially when her own agenda was a factor
And I am talking about the character, not BBG, for clarification

I haven't seen all that much 'deification' of Miss Ellie here -- there have been many discussions over the years about her denial, her selective indignance, and all of that.

But there are those who indeed deify JR and Jock as the Great White Fathers from whom all blessings flow and whose actions and tactics shouldn't be questioned.

And, yes, those comments tend -- almost always -- to come from caucasian conservative American males, who ignore even Larry's critique of JR Ewing.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I haven't seen all that much 'deification' of Miss Ellie here -- there have been many discussions over the years about her denial, her selective indignance, and all of that.

But there are those who indeed deify JR and Jock as the Great White Fathers from whom all blessings flow and whose actions and tactics shouldn't be questioned.

And, yes, those comments tend -- almost always -- to come from caucasian conservative American males, who ignore even Larry's critique of JR Ewing.

That's ridiculous.

JR and Jock were constantly vilified, and you know better to equate it with some sort of conservative hero worship.
Your reasoning abilities are far better than to reduce it to such.

The oil business is a tough one.

Jock and JR had to deal with oil barons who were even more avaricious, calculating, manipulative and unethical.
Jeremy Wendell anyone? They are being complemented for their business acumen in a Darwinian business,
and yes they could be ruthless... They had to be, just to survive

There is enough political correctness gone awry. We do not need to apply it where it does not apply, and you know better

 

[Spooky Owl!]

That's ridiculous.

You say 'ridiculous' a lot.

We do not need to apply it where it does not apply, and you know better

You're constantly telling me that I "know better"! Maybe I don't -- maybe I'm just dumb!

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

You say 'ridiculous' a lot.



You're constantly telling me that I "know better"! Maybe I don't -- maybe I'm just dumb!

I don't recall saying it a lot.. but thank you for reading my posts.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

I don't recall saying it a lot.. but thank you for reading my posts.

So, are you admitting it -- or denying it?

Or do I already "know" the answer?

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

As a business owner, Sue Ellen certainly wasn't as ruthless as JR.
Yes I know about the movie, and the Mandy Winger hiring,
not to mention the Westar battle.
Maybe not her finest moments, but nowhere near
JR's doings.

 

[southfork88]

Oh, I don’t think Sue Ellen was ever as bad as J.R. though. Anything she did was usually driven by trying to even the score, which she became very good at as the years went by. Sue Ellen deserved to have a shot at making J.R. squirm every once in awhile. She made her mistakes but I don’t think she would’ve ever hurt anyone intentionally, hence why she shelved the movie eventually. She was tired of not standing up for herself all those years and now she was learning to. She had earned that right in my opinion.

I confirm, Sue Ellen usually reacted to JR's misdeeds generally in a self-harming manner, only in the last seasons following her husband's modus operandi. Obviously there was also a sadomasochistic component in this couple's relationship.

 

[Mustard]

If it is about Peter being so young, I have to remind you that Holly wasn't much older than Peter when JR slept with her.

Holly is much older than Peter, come on

 

[Mustard]

Well, I'll agree JR was a tragic character -- but he was tragic because no one really thanked him enough??

I actually felt sorry for J.R. when nobody in the family thanked him for making the Ewings billionaires.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I actually felt sorry for J.R. when nobody in the family thanked him for making the Ewings billionaires.

It always amazes me how as ruthless as J.R. can be there were times when he could still make you feel sorry for him regardless.

Holly is much older than Peter, come on

Too bad they didn’t think of bringing back Muriel and have her and Lucy fight over Peter. Sorry, it’s the best alternative I could think of.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

We saw Sue Ellen briefly as a Mistress of Enterprise -- was she less bitchy than JR?

 

[CryptCreeper72]

One thing I will say about SE that was different than JR was the way she dealt with getting rid of a threat to their marriage. JR was ruthless (especially with Cliff and Peter) while getting rid of SE's lovers. SE on the other hand, actually did Mandy a favor by giving her a career in the movies. She seemed to go out of her way to not to any permanent damage to Mandy - at least until Mandy came back scheming again.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

One thing I will say about SE that was different than JR was the way she dealt with getting rid of a threat to their marriage. JR was ruthless (especially with Cliff and Peter) while getting rid of SE's lovers. SE on the other hand, actually did Mandy a favor by giving her a career in the movies. She seemed to go out of her way to not to any permanent damage to Mandy - at least until Mandy came back scheming again.

Agree. Sue Ellen would only go so far.

 

[KayLloyd]

Miss Ellie was a moron. Very naive when it came to Jock. How else did JR learn his tricks than from his Daddy and their friends? JR was caused by her turning him loose and claiming Gary was her favorite- no wonder JR was jealous and resentful of Gary, no matter what he did, it was fine and the bad stuff was Daddy or JR's fault. Yet everything JR did was under scrutiny and judgment. NO wonder he was the way he was. In the barest, classic sense, JR was a tragic character. He loved the art of the deals and the feeling of achievement, yet no one thanked him or gave him an atta boy.... although mortgaging Southfork was all kinds of dangerous and stupid, it paid off.

Miss Ellie would certainly have never won Mother of The Year. She basically handed J.R. over to Jock once Gary came along, and that must have been confusing and traumatic for J.R. Jock was rough on him and not nurturing at all. And then Jock basically abandoned him once Bobby came along and he had to compete for Jock's approval. My sense is that Bobby only turned out as well as he did because Gary left and Miss Ellie had to focus her attention on him. He was the only child who was really on the radar of both parents. Had Gary stayed in Dallas, Jock would have likely molded Bobby into a mini him.

 

[Jock's Ghost]

I did not like the reason for JR and Sue Ellen's split in S8. Jamie causing it, tattling on JR instead of minding her own business. I know, a tv show, but still it felt very calculated but then moron Jaime never admitted to such things. Sue Ellen was wrong to be mad at JR for his flings when SE set the rules and told him to bugger off. YET her she is getting pissed- AFTER she had the miscariage of her young male lover! JR did nothing more than tell Peter to leave, the police setup and all was great fun, but he still took her back. JR is a cad with his women most of the time, but SE is no better. At least during their second marriage.