Was Sue Ellen just as bad as JR?

[CeeCee72]

We have talked a lot on this forum about all of JR's evil deeds. JR never hesitated to hurt those he claimed to love in order to get what he wanted. He mortgages Southfork. He blackmailed Bobby over Christopher. He brought in Lisa Aldean. He ignored his own sons whenever it suited him. He hurt Sue Ellen over and over. Being "loved" by JR offered no protection against being hurt by him.

But, can't we also say the same thing about Sue Ellen?

Not the early Sue Ellen. Yes, she was snobby and vapid and selfish. But the Sue Ellen from later seasons was ruthless.

Seems to me she wanted JR to suffer and that is the only thing she cares about.

She tried to start up her affair with Cliff again for no other reason than she knew it would annoy JR - not caring about Cliff's feelings at all.

She manipulated poor, stupid Cally in order to make sure JR married her just because she knew JR would eventually be miserable in that marriage. She didn't seem to care one bit about how badly Cally would get hurt or how it would all disrupt and confuse her own son's life.

She plotted to make sure JR didn't get his hands on West Star, not stopping for one minute to think about how much JR would hate her for that and how that would negatively impact her son.

She drug Nicholas into her feud with JR not caring how it would affect him (and the poor guy ended up dead over it).

She made that stupid movie KNOWING it had the potential to hurt so many people she claimed to love (Ellie, Bobby, John Ross).

By the end of the character's run, it's hard to argue that SE wasn't every bit as evil as JR.

 

[Billy Wall]

I don't blame her one bit for wanting JR to suffer after everything he put her through. JR seemed to take great pleasure in humiliating her and he's done some things that you don't forget.

IMO, Sue Ellen was borderline unbearable when she was getting along with JR and she "thought" he was a changed man.

 

[CeeCee72]

I don't blame her one bit for wanting JR to suffer after everything he put her through. JR seemed to take great pleasure in humiliating her and he's done some things that you don't forget.

IMO, Sue Ellen was borderline unbearable when she was getting along with JR and she "thought" he was a changed man.

Oh, I agree JR DESERVED everything SE did to him. I would have been fine with it if she had managed to hurt HIM without creating so much collateral damage in her own son's life and the lives of other people she claimed to care about.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

JR and Sue Ellen were flipsides of the same coin, both narcissists (although there was a time on this forum, long ago, where any criticism of Sue Ellen -- even just holding her accountable for her own behavior -- was seen as blasphemy... we even started a thread "Sue Ellen versus Jesus" and Sue Ellen won the poll handily).

There was a sadomasochistic dynamic between the pair, an obvious co-dependency. Katzman said the duo were caught up in "a lust sick relationship". Larry later said, "JR had a need to bully, Sue Ellen had a need to be bullied." At the time Linda herself described Sue Ellen as "a bitch" and "an alcoholic," "neurotic and psychotic," later became more protective in her comments about the character, but more recently said at an event that, "Okay --- I was a bitch...!" (to lots of hoots and laughter).

Clearly, if Sue Ellen had been healthier, she would have pulled away from JR earlier and left Texas forever; instead, once she toughened-up comparatively, she just flipped the switch and became the sadist while JR stumbled.

Until Telepictures decided they couldn't afford her anymore.

Even both the actors were Sun in Virgo/Moon in Aquarius -- as were Kristin and Mother Shepard (different rising signs, of course). All four of 'em...!

 

[DallasFanForever]

Oh, I don’t think Sue Ellen was ever as bad as J.R. though. Anything she did was usually driven by trying to even the score, which she became very good at as the years went by. Sue Ellen deserved to have a shot at making J.R. squirm every once in awhile. She made her mistakes but I don’t think she would’ve ever hurt anyone intentionally, hence why she shelved the movie eventually. She was tired of not standing up for herself all those years and now she was learning to. She had earned that right in my opinion.

 

[CeeCee72]

Oh, I don’t think Sue Ellen was ever as bad as J.R. though. Anything she did was usually driven by trying to even the score, which she became very good at as the years went by. Sue Ellen deserved to have a shot at making J.R. squirm every once in awhile. She made her mistakes but I don’t think she would’ve ever hurt anyone intentionally, hence why she shelved the movie eventually. She was tired of not standing up for herself all those years and now she was learning to. She had earned that right in my opinion.

I get that perspective. And SE has long been my favorite female Dallas character. It just occurred to me today while I was searching season eleven how many people got hurt because they were unfortunate enough to get caught between SE and JR's crossfire. Honestly,it should me how many people SE was willing to sacrifice to get even.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Oh, I don’t think Sue Ellen was ever as bad as J.R. though. Anything she did was usually driven by trying to even the score, which she became very good at as the years went by. Sue Ellen deserved to have a shot at making J.R. squirm every once in awhile. She made her mistakes but I don’t think she would’ve ever hurt anyone intentionally, hence why she shelved the movie eventually. She was tired of not standing up for herself all those years and now she was learning to. She had earned that right in my opinion.

Were we watching the same show? Even Valene called Sue Ellen a "bitch!" to her face on nuDALLAS. And not without cause.

Oh, we should have seen more of Val, Lucy, Ray and the other Ewings on nuDALLAS. All stuffed into Southfork -- and Sue Ellen never sniping about how small the house is. Southfork is as large as you think it is inside your head.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I get that perspective. And SE has long been my favorite female Dallas character. It just occurred to me today while I was searching season eleven how many people got hurt because they were unfortunate enough to get caught between SE and JR's crossfire. Honestly,it should me how many people SE was willing to sacrifice to get even.

Yes, I do see what you mean of course. Many people were hurt in the crossfire of J.R. and Sue Ellen. I guess I just always looked at season 11 like it was mostly J.R.’s fault with Sue Ellen’s actions usually being reactionary to his. I don’t think she meant for Nicholas to be a casualty for example. She did genuinely care about him, or at least it seemed that way to me.

Were we watching the same show?

Well, that damn dream did screw up everything! The lines get blurry. Who knows what we were watching?

Even Valene called Sue Ellen a "bitch!" to her face on nuDALLAS. And not without cause.

Oh yes! And I’m not denying Sue Ellen’s faults or letting her off the hook by any means. I’m just saying that with a lot of her nastiness, especially in the early years of the original show, I understand where it was coming from. She was far from perfect but being married to THAT didn’t exactly help her cause.

 

[LMLDallas78]

That great quote, "I had a great teacher", was said by Sue Ellen to JR in Pam's dream so it must have been true.

I can't compare Sue Ellen's behaviour to JR's malicious ways. He always left a long trail of hurt and deceit, Sue Ellen's behaviour can hardly compare to his. She certainly wasn't the abused that turned into the abuser anyway. She no longer fell victim to JR's abuse so maybe that magnifies her ruthlessness.

Sue Ellen was far more of an open book who usually played her cards too soon and would publicly display her behaviour from attacking her husband infront of his family to being carried into Southfork drunk more than once as well as openly neglect her son when she was poorly. Yes she toyed with Cliff again but accepted his decline. Its's not like she made a play for him and used him like they had both done before. He once called her a user, how HE had the gall to call her that!

She was able to manipulate poor stupid Cally because she was poor stupid Cally who should have stayed away.

Sue Ellen could be naughty and devious but nothing like JR. She played Gary but rang Valene to come get him back. Since when did Gary "care too much" about Sue Ellen? She didn't exactly hurt a jilted lover. How on earth Valene could compare Sue Ellen to JR beggers belief.

Sue Ellen learned to be tough, she had to especially how she was treated by that family sometimes. She had to learn the hard way that she could actually survive away from JR.

Sue Ellen once said to Pam, "For you to survive you have two choices, you can either get out or play by their rules".

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

That great quote, "I had a great teacher", was said by Sue Ellen to JR in Pam's dream so it must have been true.

I can't compare Sue Ellen's behaviour to JR's malicious ways. He always left a long trail of hurt and deceit, Sue Ellen's behaviour can hardly compare to his. She certainly wasn't the abused that turned into the abuser anyway. She no longer fell victim to JR's abuse so maybe that magnifies her ruthlessness.

Sue Ellen was far more of an open book who usually played her cards too soon and would publicly display her behaviour from attacking her husband infront of his family to being carried into Southfork drunk more than once as well as openly neglect her son when she was poorly. Yes she toyed with Cliff again but accepted his decline. Its's not like she made a play for him and used him like they had both done before. He once called her a user, how HE had the gall to call her that!

She was able to manipulate poor stupid Cally because she was poor stupid Cally who should have stayed away.

Sue Ellen could be naughty and devious but nothing like JR. She played Gary but rang Valene to come get him back. Since when did Gary "care too much" about Sue Ellen? She didn't exactly hurt a jilted lover. How on earth Valene could compare Sue Ellen to JR beggers belief.

Sue Ellen learned to be tough, she had to especially how she was treated by that family sometimes. She had to learn the hard way that she could actually survive away from JR.

Sue Ellen once said to Pam, "For you to survive you have two choices, you can either get out or play by their rules".

Which is how Sue Ellen always rationalizes being a bitch.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I think on a basic level, being married to JR changed Sue Ellen. She had to become the supportive wife, find ways to ignore JR's
activities, and sacrifice her own identity.
Over time she evolved into someone else who had both positive and not so positive traits.
She faced challenges in the Ewing family that (overwhelmingly) most others would not, on a number of levels.
Sue Ellen had positive attributes and flaws, as a result of loving JR

 

[Jock's Ghost]

Nah. SE was no better. She even admitted she was weak and in love with the money and status JR gave her. He didn't force her to drink. He didn't force her to do anything, although in those early years he was an emotional abuser of the worst kind, but she returned to him and so it goes again....
I think they missed an opportunity with SE after the Peter affair. She proved she was just as guilty of cheating. They should have made SE realize she is as bad and a truce should have been called.

I do like SE as a tough old broad as she later became, but she also became a self-righteous hypocrite.

 

[Billy Wall]

Nah. SE was no better. She even admitted she was weak and in love with the money and status JR gave her. He didn't force her to drink. He didn't force her to do anything, although in those early years he was an emotional abuser of the worst kind, but she returned to him and so it goes again....
I think they missed an opportunity with SE after the Peter affair. She proved she was just as guilty of cheating. They should have made SE realize she is as bad and a truce should have been called.

I do like SE as a tough old broad as she later became, but she also became a self-righteous hypocrite.

Nah...Having Sue Ellen admit that she's just as bad as JR would be, once again, taking him off the hook. And once again, Miss Ellie once told JR "you neglected that girl from the moment you brought her into this house." JR's infidelities started way before Dallas come on the air.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

The way Sue Ellen would backstab her supporters the moment she was back in good with JR says everything.

She got what she deserved. And so did he (shot every 18 months).

 

[Billy Wall]

The way Sue Ellen would backstab her supporters the moment she was back in good with JR says everything.

Absolutely. I hated the way she treated Bobby and Pam when she got good with JR.

 

[Mustard]

Sue Ellen was brought up by her mother Patricia to get a "high status" husband, who would presumably look after her and love her. The problem is that J.R., along with his adultery and obsessions with business, was extremely selective about when he loved her, so Sue Ellen was stuck emotionally because of that, so she was confused, hurt etc. Sue Ellen clearly hides some of this hurt by getting a bit nastier herself, and seeing Bobby and Pam's relationship obviously hurt Sue Ellen further, because Bobby and Pam were a lot more loved up and touchy feely. J.R. and Sue Ellen still have a sizzling lustful chemistry at times, but the tender loving stuff a lot less, and J.R. is often very cold to her.

 

[Mustard]

The way Sue Ellen would backstab her supporters the moment she was back in good with JR says everything.

She got what she deserved. And so did he (shot every 18 months).

Sue Ellen even hates many of her own personality traits. She said to Dusty once in Season 3 DVD "I'm a snob".

 

[Mustard]

Sue Ellen could be naughty and devious but nothing like JR. She played Gary but rang Valene to come get him back. Since when did Gary "care too much" about Sue Ellen? She didn't exactly hurt a jilted lover. How on earth Valene could compare Sue Ellen to JR beggers belief.

Gary knows that Sue Ellen is an alcoholic. Gary is a non-functioning alcoholic who has to get on the wagon and stay there or he'll soon hit rock bottom, whereas Sue Ellen is one of those self-denial alcoholics who will resist admitting that she has a problem. She blasted Gary about this in one of the Dallas episodes, saying "stop preaching at me". Digger is another different type of alcoholic, a functioning one who knows what he is, can sometimes stop drinking to see his family and get some work so he can get some more money to later go back to drinking again.

I can see why Valene doesn't think too much of Sue Ellen. Valene's personality is to learn from every setback in her life and fight back harder, while Sue Ellen goes the other way, either into a depression or into a bottle. Sue Ellen's instinct is self-destruction when she's down.

 

[Jock's Ghost]

Thats why Valene is one of my top 3 favorites.... learned how to come back... sure she went nuts, but knowing she had kids and assholes telling her they were dead would do that to anyone.

 

[LMLDallas78]

@Snarky Oracle!
How she rationalised being a bitch?
Right up there with JR, Sue Ellen had the sharpest of tongues and a "trashy mouth". Delightful. Like everyone else who blamed everyone else for their behaviour.
Good on her, that a girl!!

Her supporters?
Bobby and Clayton were the ones on the receiving end of Sue Ellen's misplaced loyalty to her husband. They were big enough to forgive her and could see she felt duty bound to her marriage. Bobby even admired JR with Sue Ellen standing by him during the Ewing Oil fight.


@Mustard
I remember that scene with Gary in the nursery. He was preaching at her. Like she would admit to being an alcoholic to him? He looked like he was gagging to jump on her at any minute.

Later at the hospital she had a go at him for interfering AND in Knots he said he hated her! No surprises he was never going to attend AA with her.

What Linda did with her eyes in the nursery scene is truly remarkable.

She also refers to herself as a witch if she doesn't get her own way in the scene with Dusty. Maybe that's when she should have said she turns to the bottle. Although when she met with Dusty in his hotel room and he offered her champagne, she refused saying, I could be an alcoholic. Dusty being Dusty just shrugged it off.

When did JR ever admit to what he was?